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Click here to see what author Michael Moorcock thinks about the fight
My problem with all sports is that I’ve never been able to understand why we can’t just toss a coin for who wins and then all go off to the pub for a friendly drink…
The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.
But when he arrived at the ancient killing ground–golgotha, place-of-the-skull–the gunslinger was faced with a man he knew not, a cynical, laughing stranger with bone-white hair and bitter blood-crimson eyes. At his hip was a black iron runesword, the dread Stormbringer, forged of ancient and alien sorcery.
The gunslinger rested his hands on the sandalwood grips of his guns. His right hand throbbed where the index and middle finger used to be. He said the old words to himself. I do not Shoot with My Hand; He who Shoots with His Hand has Forgotten the Face of His Father.
“I’ll kill you,” the gunslinger said.
The albino shrugged. “As soon as you like. I care not.” As one elegant, alabaster hand touched the hellblade’s hilt, the soul-rending chaos of the cursed Stormbringer tore through his fragile brain, his wretched spirit.
The cynical slayer chanted to himself the ancient and many-vowelled names of his gods but the chant was cut off: he felt a blood-drenched burning deep in his heart, a pain deeper than he had ever suffered. But it was not the sinister sword’s curse annihilating the tattered remnants of his broken soul.
It was a bullet.
“We were well met, sai,” he said, looking down at the wreck of the albino’s body. “Your world has moved on, too.”
But Elric had fallen with his hellblade drawn, and now its fiendish strength fired through Elric’s wasted form. The sword moved with a mind of its own and with a weird devil scream plunged straight through the gunslinger’s chest.
With a shiver of sick pleasure he drank in the gunslinger’s soul. He heard all of their names and each one burned through Elric and infused him with sinister hellstrength: Cort Cuthbert Eddie Susannah. The gunslinger had destroyed more lives even than Elric. It was the richest and darkest brew that Elric had yet drunk and it intoxicated him dreadfully.
And yet still, though he was bloody and broken, the gunslinger marched forward, reloading both guns with blinding speed.
And then Elric raised the Horn of Fate, slung round his neck on a silver chain, and with the last of his strength blew it thrice. The gunslinger fell to his knees, gazing at the horizon, waiting for the black silhouette of the tower to appear. “The Horn of Eld! The Tower is at hand!” At last, after all these years, he was almost there…
Elric sobbed in pain but the demon sword still swung in a black arc and plunged it into Roland Deschain’s heart. And then came a rush of such sweet sorrowing pain that Elric fell to his knees full of infinite loneliness and infinite sorrow as the last name trembled in the Bright Emperor’s feverish brain: Susan Delgado. It was no victory.
Predicted Winner: Elric
(Roland Deschain is a character from Stephen King’s The Dark Tower series; Elric is Michael Moorcock’s character from numerous stories and novels)
Gun v. Sword, and a fast gun at that… I’m thinking of an Indiana Jones moment.
guns beat swords. guns ALWAYS beat swords unless the sword is capable of firing some sort of beam out of it in which case its a gun shaped like a sword. but guns always beat swords. and besides roland is not losing to some emo-albino guy.
I have to agree. Let’s see Elric get up with his head blown off. I love the White Wolf, don’t get me wrong, but…let’s face it, conflicted and whacked as he is, Roland is both more badass and better armed. One shot from that huge gun is all it takes. Not even Stormbringer can heal what isn’t there anymore.
If you are so sure that guns beats swords remember to go to and vote for Harry Dresden to just shot Conan.
This was probably the best possible chance for Deschain, but killing Elric with the first shot is apparently not easy. In any other mental state, Elric would have either killed him right off the bat or dominated him.
Besides it’s not just guns against swords but also crazy magic.
Exactly–yes, Roland would get off the first shot, but in Elric’s case, the first shot isn’t necessarily going to kill him.
Now, a good tanning bed, though…
Um. People realize that you can’t just shoot Elric and expect him to be dead, right?
Oh, I wouldn’t expect Roland to just shoot Elric and expect him to be dead. I’d expect him to shoot Elric a whole BUNCH of times, THEN expect him to be dead.
Also, I don’t particularly want Elric to proceed. Roland’s nearly as bad, as we’ll probably be doing this “but he’d just blow them away!” argument all the way to the finale, but Elric’s abilities are so nebulous half the time, and dependent on whether he can summon Arioch or whoever, that he’s a pain to imagine fighting anyone. I mean, the dude’s kind of a Marty-Stu, battle-wise. He can always pull something out of his ass to win, just because we don’t KNOW the full extent of what he can do. I could be wrong on that, only read the first two collections, but…yeah, judging from those.
I’d love to actually see this fight. But i’m pretty sure it would turn a technical draw – sure, Roland could just shoot Elric to death ten times or so, but then Stormbringer would just fly alone and chop his head off the same way… =P
I think most of the people on this list could take at least one or two gun shots and still come out on top. But you may be right about Elric.
Although, again, I think a good blast of UV might do the trick.
Roland all the way. He would put 24 shots into Elric before he could even swing his sword.
Roland is not just a gun. I repeat Roland is not just a gun. He’d be reloaded 3 times before Elric could even realize he’d been vapourized by the Giant Hand Cannon parading as a gun that Roland carries. KA IS LIKE A WHEEL
Any man that has climbed the Dark Tower cannot be so readily vanquished; Roland of Gilead would simply let slip to Elric “go, then – there are other worlds than these,” as he sent him on his way….
I think people are forgettign that while stormbringer is elrics most potent weapon he has dark magics and wierd sciences at his command too.
Most likely, this is a draw, because I’m pretty sure they’d kill one another, but since you gotta pick a winner…I’ll go with Elric. In the scenario above, he ended the world, so he wins.
Really, whoever is using the “Gun vs Sword” argument hasn’t any idea of who Elric is and they are imagining a swordman against a cow boy. Elric is not a swordman and Stormbringer is not a sword.
Let be reasonable, Elric killed some gods.
It goes like this:
If it can die from being struck in the head by bullets, Roland Deschain can kill it.
Elric got picked for maybe the worst draw possible for the first round. Between Arioch and the lesser elemental gods at his command, he could probably fight any sorcerer in this tournament, and he’d probably do pretty well against Conan thanks to Stormbringer.
The problem here is that Roland is not a wizard, and he is not a person who will fight fairly. He will unload six rounds into Elric’s face (well – probably only two or so, since after that there wouldn’t be much of a head left to shoot) before Elric takes his first step. Stormbringer could probably pull him through any scenario except for the one where guns made out of a melted down Excalibur disintegrate his head and vital organs in a spray of blood and ooze.
Again: Elric’s just really unlucky. Roland’s pretty much the only one in this tourney who has such a clear advantage over him.
And heck, if it came down to it and the sword was flying at him, Roland would probably shoot Stormbringer, too.
Nothing has stopped Roland from reaching the tower every other time he lived this quest, don’t know why this should.
Plus, you know…gun versus sword.
This comes down to which is a greater advantage in battle: all-consuming drive vs. eternal ennui. To that end–
“The albino shrugged. ‘As soon as you like. I care not.’” That line wins it right there. Awesome.
If you think a gun can beat a sword, then you may have a point. However, if you think a gun can beat Stormbringer, a fully sentient Greater Demon sword (And when I say Greater Demon Sword, I mean the Sword IS a Greater Demon)then you are sadly mistaken.
Lets not forget that Elric is a very accomplished Sorcerer and Demon Summoner as well. Not to mention the Ring of Kings, the Ring of Actorios, which enables him to summon Arioch, a Lord of Chaos and Duke of Hell.
In short, this is not a gun and knife fight.
Unfortunately, Elric’s ‘vision’ of victory is actually emo hell, and his wasted corpse serves to feed lobstrosities while Roland waits for the next round.
As for your gun vs sword-but-really-cool-sword-that-summons-demons argument:
I hereby put forth that in that case, Roland’s gun is a powerful demon gun, capable of igniting the massive Demon ‘gunpowder’ to create a hellish explosion which pushes the magic ’slug’ at demonic speeds down the unholy ‘barrel’ and into Elric’s limpid gray matter.
Re Moorcock’s view on King: they can be read here (http://www.multiverse.org/fora/showthread.php?p=184083&highlight=king#post184083)
As to this contest – depends on prep doesn’t it? If Elric knew a fight was on the way, elemental air magic would mean bullets would become simply irrelevant. Or a thousand other means Elric would have to hand: he is the premier sorcerer in the entire multiverse after all.
But get him off-guard with no enchantments in place and it’s likely a Stormbringer-induced everybody-dies draw.
Clean win for Roland? ‘Fraid not.
I still don’t see how Elric is supposed to be able to do anything – magic or swordery – through Roland emptying out his head. Elric still has to be alive for Stormbringer to control his body.
I hereby put forth that in that case, Roland’s gun is a powerful demon gun, capable of igniting the massive Demon ‘gunpowder’ to create a hellish explosion which pushes the magic ’slug’ at demonic speeds down the unholy ‘barrel’ and into Elric’s limpid gray matter.
But you see, Roland’s gun is not a powerful demon gun. At best it is made from melted down metals that at one time was part of Excalibur. A meager remnant of a family heirloom that allows him into the Tower. Outside of Roland’s uncanny accuracy, the gun itself has no special properties. No?
Elric already took out Roland Deschain’s namesake, Roland, as an incarnation of the Eternal Champion.
I just think this is silly. Why not set Billy the Kid against Darth Vader while you are at it. Gunslingers vs. World Conquering, Populace Eradicating, Chaos Lord/God commanding Powerhouses. How silly.
I just think this is silly. Why not set Billy the Kid against Darth Vader while you are at it. Gunslingers vs. World Conquering, Populace Eradicating, Chaos Lord/God commanding Powerhouses. How silly.
This is a valid point, except that Elric and Roland are in a rare case where Elric’s universe-shattering powers won’t be able to come into play. Roland will kill him in the first shot, which will come faster than Elric can react to. Unless he’s killed a whole city of people beforehand or walks in with Arioch bubbling inside of his chest like a cancer, sinking dark tendrils into his brain to increase his reaction speed far past anything Elric ever showed in the four or five collections I’ve read, then this fight is going to end with the sound of six bullets ringing out as a single shot.
Roland isn’t anywhere close to as powerful as Elric. Pretending otherwise is ridiculous. This is just the one matchup in the entire tournament where power differences are rendered meaningless by the fact that Roland is just faster, and being faster in this fight means that you win.
Comparing it to Darth Vader – or several other members of this tournament, like Gandalf – isn’t exactly a proper analogy, because many of these people aren’t really vulnerable to bullets, or have a precognitive ability that would make Roland’s speed meaningless.
The important point here is that Roland’s first shot would go through Elric’s eye, and that’s all that it would take. The other five are just gravy.
Stormbringer might scream and howl, but if the hand that holds it is limp and dead then it doesn’t matter.
‘Cept Stormbringer is quite capable of killing all on its own – regardless of a live Elric or not.
‘Cept Stormbringer is quite capable of killing all on its own – regardless of a live Elric or not.
Really? All right, two things.
1. Could you tell me a time when Stormbringer actually acted under its own volition? All the times I remember Stormbringer being separated from Elric, it was always powerless to act without a hos.t That’s kind of Stormbringer’s nature, to my understanding.
2. Even if Sormbringer manages to get Roland after Elric’s brain flies out the back of his skull (its ability to do this even if it can fly isn’t particularly clear), didn’t Roland still beat Elric?
The important point here is that Roland’s first shot would go through Elric’s eye, and that’s all that it would take. The other five are just gravy.
I realize the futility of arguing this completely hypothetical scenario, but I just have to indulge myself. : )
Roland is fast. Sure. As far as a Showdown at ‘High Noon’ pitted against another likewise armed gunslinging opponent, his speed is unassailable. Roland would win. However, pitted against the premier sorcerer in Moorcock’s multi-verse, Elric does not even need to draw his weapon. Stormbringer is unnecessary. As soon as Roland makes a move for his pistols, Elric, with a simple flick of his wrist, can command the Earth Elementals to swallow him into the ground, or Air Elementals to harden the air around him, preventing projectiles from penetrating the now impervious air. I might go on an on here.
You have stated that this is a tournement. Who shows up for a tournement without their defenses at the ready?
Roland has no defenses.
Your “One shot, one kill” scenario is all peachy-keen, but the premise you describe is that of Roland the sniper that shoots Elric, the Emperor of Melnibone, unaware. Tell me… How does Roland get “the drop” on Elric? Does he get to start the match with his weapon drawn and aimed? Does Elric start the match completely defenseless and unprepared? I believe that would be the only way he might get off the shot before Elric could react in some way.
Flugelhorn, that is a very fair point, but before I continue I have to ask (this is for the sake of knowing how much I have to say, not to discredit your opinion): how much of The Dark Tower have you read?
1. Could you tell me a time when Stormbringer actually acted under its own volition?
Actually, at the end of Stormbringer, I believe. Do we need spoiler warnings here?
After Moonglum allows Elric to take his soul so that he will have the strength to fulfil his dark destiny, Elric sucks the souls of every last person to become the last man standing. Stormbringer then comes to life after having played “oppossum” all this time, sucks Elric’s soul dry, and jauntily takes off to spread its evil influence across the world.
It has been 20 years since I last read them, so my memory is a bit fuzzy on the details.
I think you’re missing my point here…
Roland has the Ka on his side
as long as he hasnt reached the tower, it will help him to get his victory
All right, Flugelhorn, thanks for that. Apparently I somehow never got around to reading Stormbringer. Shame the story ends(?) that way, but hey! Makes me curious about whether or not Stormbringer could do that the whole time, or if it needed a certain amount of power for it, or if it just needed to eat Elric.
Anyway, to address the problem of speed:
You bring up a fair point that Elric can magic his way out of most problems, and given time to do so he is going to win this fight because his magic is insane. We agree on this point. I think we also agree that Roland would kill him if he got off the first shot, regardless of whether or not Stormbringer kills Roland afterward (or just tries to hold onto him as a host, though it would be interesting to see what would happen to Stormbringer in the Tower).
The only point here left for us to discuss (since whether or not Roland could kill Elric with a bullet is not something that is going to be resolved through further discourse) is whether or not Roland is fast enough to shoot Elric before Elric lights him on fire, underground, with a boulder up his pants.
Roland is fast, but fast doesn’t really cover it – he ends up with protege who are fast, probably the fastest gunslingers who ever lived in the context of our world. They could draw and fire in the time it would take most people to realize that there was a gun on their person. Roland is sort like that – it is reflected by one of his students that if Roland ever did go mad, there would be no stopping him, and Roland would kill them all.
I normally hate presenting videos to prove a point, but click this link and watch the first ninety seconds or so:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iHryGNpyc0
You’ll notice that this person can draw and fire in one fiftieth of a second, before the neurons in your brains fire enough to tell you that his hand is moving. You’ll also notice that he fires twice and it appears to the naked eye that he fires once – and even the camera can’t track his hand hitting the hammer the second time.
Roland is kind of like that, only he can fire six times in the same amount of time it takes this guy to fire twice. In the space between frames he could empty his .45 (or so) calibre revolvers completely, and he reloads nearly as fast as he fires.
Try to imagine that – in the time it take you to blink (blink, to get an idea of how fast that is) Roland can draw, fire six shots, and start to reload. He would be done reloading by the time the sensation of the bullets hitting you had registered as pain rather than just pressure. You would never even realize you had been shot before he shot you again.
Elric can do great things with a single word, or a movement of his hand, but he would have time for exactly none of that. Roland isn’t the kind of person who shoots through the heart, he shoots through the head, or the eye, because those who have been shot in the heart can still shoot you back. He’s accurate enough to hit six golden Snitches from Harry Potter out of the air at thirty paces (I am not making this up) so quickly that it might as well be simultaneous.
Elric is more powerful, and would win given the amount of time he would have against any other fighter in this tournament, but Roland would not give it to him.
There’s something wrong with the description of the fight. Roland shot Elric in the heart with one bullet, then aparently came close enough (under the understandable assumption that Elric was toast) that Elric could skewer him with his hellblade. Fine so far. But then we have Roland, not dead yet because he is just too bad-ass, marching forward and reloading his guns with blinding speed. Why, for God’s sake? Roland only fired one bullet. If he’s still alive and fighting, he should be emptying both revolvers into Elric’s head — which will be gone after two or three shots. This one plays out as a draw.
Awesome fight, though. These two are well-matched.
Roland still had his fingers when he first came upon the Golgotha.
Even if Roland somehow managed to kill Elric; Elric is the Eternal Champion. He’ll just come back manifested as Prince Corum and bugger Roland with his own six-shooter…
Roland’s Ka has him going to the Dark Tower (again and again and again) until he gets it right. He doesn’t die at Golgotha no matter who he sees there because its not his fate.
Besides, this is 30-something year old Roland with 10 fingers and no arthritis. He wins.
@ Wiggy: Stormbringer is shown to be capable of moving under her own volition on more than one occasion, but to take a single example (other than the end of Stormbringer already mentioned) here’s an extract from the story ‘The Flame Bringers’:
“[Elric] cried: “Stormbringer! Stormbringer, unite with your brother! Come, sweet runeblade, come hell-forged kinslayer, your master needs thee…”
Outside, it seemed that a wailing wind had suddenly sprung up. Elric heard shouts of fear and a whistling sound. Then the covering of the wagon was sliced apart to let in the starlight and the moaning blade quivered in the air over his head.”
So you see, Stormbringer is quite capable of moving under her own volition if she wishes. [Yes, Stormbringer is female - at least, she was before Moorcock revised the stories. *facepalm*]
As for the fight itself, assuming a straightforward face-off, guns may beat swords, but swords – particularly powerful sentient demon runeblades that can move with preternatural speed supplanting the wielder’s own mastery – can parry bullets (think Wonder Woman’s indestructible bracelets) and, besides, I reckon magic can beat guns so I’m casting my vote for the Prince of Ruins.
@ demos99:
All right, thank you. For some reason I thought I remembered stories where Elric was (even momentarily) separated from Stormbringer and the sword was rendered frustrated and powerless, but it’s more likely that my memory is faulty than that Moorcock retconned the abilities of the runeblade.
Like I said above – I don’t think magic will be able to enter the equation, but if we disagree concerning Roland’s speed versus Stormbringer’s speed (since that’s what it comes down to) then I don’t have much else I can say.
Elric destroyed armies of men, vanguished sorcerers with more firepower than a battleship, defeated beings older than the gods themselves, blew the horn of fate and presided over the death and rebirth of the entire universe.
Tactics don’t matter, it’s about brute force. There is no way that Roland can even compete.
I’m not sure why it’s about brute force. Why isn’t it about speed? Elric is mortal; six or twelve bullets in his head will take care of that. See Wiggy’s analysis above.
For the record, Roland did quite a bit of that stuff himself: Particularly the horn of fate and presiding over the death and rebirth of the universe. In fact, I would argue that Roland’s version of those events is actually probably more impressive than Elric’s.
Elric is plenty powerful. But he’s not fast enough, and even if SB splats Roland afterward (I’m not sure it would, honestly; it’s kind of capricious, but even if) Roland still beat Elric, which is the relevant bit. If Elric dies and Roland still stands, Roland wins.
The bullets will never even reach Elric. Blade or magic makes short work of ANY airborne projectile. And even if they did reach Elric, he has the tenacity of an animated corpse. If Elric falls, SB drinks Roland’s soul, and feeds it back to Elric lickety-split who is then on his feet and on his way to slaughter Gandalf.
I admit that I’m not convinced that Elric is fast enough – even with Stormbringer having fed him on dozens of souls beforehand, which doesn’t appear to be the case if he’s at Golgotha – to even pull his sword, much less deflect six bullets fired in a fiftieth of a second, none of which may be aiming at the same spot.
When I say “I’m not convinced,” in this case, I mean that I can’t see it happening. Elric will get hit.
I also can’t see Stormbringer bringing him back to life with Roland’s life force (don’t forget, King’s “souls” aren’t really like Moorcock’s) if Elric hasn’t got any brains in his head, or his organs are on the ground. Strombringer’s brought him back from a lot, but .45 rounds to the noggin is not, to my knowledge, amongst them.
I might concede the point if Stormbringer ever brought Elric back to life after decapitation in the physical plane, I guess?
Guns beat swords , but guns don’t beat demons in the shape of a sword which kill GODS!!!!! and end entire universal cycles.
Are y’all kidding me? As rich a character as Roland is, he’s still just a man with great reflexes. Elric has defeated gods, demons, sorcers, and warriors. Elric would see this comming from a long way off and as much as he may want to lose, it would never happen. Stormbringer is one of the most powerful objects that has ever been written about. A demonic possesed sword in the hands of an incredibly powerful, yet frail wizard vs. a lightning fast cowboy missing fingers. Elric will be around to see who he fights next, hoping this will be the one to defeat him.
I don’t think anyone is trying to argue that Roland’s comparable to Elric in any particular way except for being faster. Unfortunately, being faster is all that would matter, world-shattering powers notwithstanding.
I think Elric could take this. In part, Elric never fights alone. Take out the fact that he is the greatest sorceror of his world, and has made pacts with all the elementals, and all the Beast Lords (personification of all the animals), and a Duke of Chaos…. Take out all that, and you still have a sentient sword that can deflect most any attack, and presumably that includes bullets. The question is not whether the qunslinger can beat Elric, but can he beat Elric AND Stormbringer? I think my money is on Elric.
Question: How long would it take Elric to summon a demon or cast some sort of defensive spell that could stop bullets (if he can)? I’ve never read Moorcock so I don’t know.
The way I envision these cage matches is that the opponents face off with the knowledge that they are fighting the person opposite them to the death, but without having prepared spells or weapons already in hand. The horn sounds and they go at it. If Elric takes longer than a second (maybe a second and a half) to do whatever he does, then it’s over. Roland would simply draw and fire. But if Elric is faster at his craft than Roland is at gunslinging…then I say he wins.
Please answer my question so I know how to vote.
Thanks.
“The way I envision these cage matches is that the opponents face off with the knowledge that they are fighting the person opposite them to the death, but without having prepared spells or weapons already in hand. The horn sounds and they go at it.”
So, this means that Roland has no gun or ammo on hand? And Elric has no sword or prepared spells on hand either? Elric would then prepare a spell on the spot while Roland ran at him (using all the powers of his incredibly fast reflexes of course), and as Roland get halfway there… pop, he dies.
Or maybe Elric has his sword, but no spells prepared, and Roland has his gun, but no ammo. So while Roland loads, Elric unleashes a prepared spell.
Or are you saying Elric has a sword, and no prepared spells, and Roland has a loaded gun ready to shoot Elric in the head/eye/face 6 times. In which case, the playing field seems a little unbalanced.
edit last post:
Or maybe Elric has his sword, but no spells prepared, and Roland has his gun, but no ammo. So while Roland loads, Elric perpares and unleashes a spell.