Image courtesy of Walt Disney Pictures |
Image courtesy of Kim Kincaid |
||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||
Advantages
|
Advantages
|
||||||||||||||||||||
Disadvantages
|
Disadvantages
|
||||||||||||||||||||
Kills
|
Kills
|
Click here to see what author Patrick Rothfuss thinks will happen
It was dawn again. The world was coming alive with sound, and the sound was of three parts.
The most obvious part was a silvery and shimmering hum, made by things that were growing. If there had been trees, the sweet shivering rustle of their leaves would have hymned with it… but then, all of a sudden, there were trees, great and golden-leaved, with long shadows cast by the penny-bright sun, newly minted. If there had been creatures–mice and beavers and fauns and centaurs–their laughter would have glimmered in joyous counterpoint to the sound… and then, there they were, all the happy animals of Narnia, cavorting in the morning light.
Inside the forest stood a Lion, and he was quite unlike any other lion in the universe in that he could be heard to be singing. In doing this he rounded out the sweet, bright sound with something colossal and magnificent. A deep and ancient rhythm, in basso profundo.
The third sound was not an easy thing to notice. In fact, perhaps only Aslan could have heard it; he felt it murmuring in the loamy soil underfoot, sensed it thrumming in the very trunks of the trees. It was a single voice, much smaller than his own, the voice of a mortal. It was accompanied, every so often, by the strumming of a lute, a sound was even softer than that of the babbling brook Aslan had conjured.
But for all that, the sound the mortal Kvothe made was not dissimilar from Aslan’s song–for it, too, contained its own deep magic.
Kvothe was saying the true names of things.
And as he said them, the things Aslan brought into being… ceased to be. Aslan conjured a mighty river; Kvothe whispered its secret name and the waters ran dry. Aslan sang the sky and Kvothe’s naming drained the blue, blue, blue from it.
It was a strange kind of battle, but a battle it was: a clashing of high magics, as ethereal as an argument between angels. Still Kvothe tried to think ten steps ahead, knowing that even that was not enough to help him against a god’s foresight. Seeing something totally strange in the forest clearing–an iron lamppost–he tried to break his mind into three pieces and cursed the loss of his sympathy…
The Lion paced towards him, and Kvothe found himself lost for a moment in the black and starry depths of His eyes, so vast and infinite they could contain all the worlds Kvothe didn’t know the names of. It was then that he knew that Aslan was not even this creature’s true name, that it was only the pale shadow of a forgotten name…
“You can destroy, mortal, but only I can create,” Aslan said. Kvothe saw the muscles tensing beneath the creature’s golden coat.
The great beast flung himself on Kvothe. It might have been over in a moment if there did not come another sound, one that Kvothe heard reverberating over all the other sounds: the smashing of Kvothe’s lute.
It all came back to Kvothe in a rush: Ambrose’s accusations. Nearly being expelled from the university. The humiliations of the trial. The public whipping. The word, the single word, that had shone out from his dreaming mind that day. Kvothe said it with what should have been his next-to-last breath.
And now the only sound was the wind. It was like no other wind Kvothe had ever seen before: It roared through the forest, breaking trees and raising mighty waves and blowing the very clouds from the skies.
Aslan pulled away from him, and looked up at the sky, with the strangest look on His noble countenance; it looked almost like fear. He tried to sing his song again and still the wind blew; it fluttered away into a whimper. “I can’t make it stop,” he said. “I am the Alpha and the Omega. I created all there is and all that there shall be. But even I don’t know the name of the wind.”
When he turned again to Kvothe his eyes seemed smaller, dimmer, more ordinary. “But this is my world,” he said, sounding almost petulant. “I made it! Who are you, anyway?”
Looking at the lion, who seemed to have grown thinner and duller and shabbier by the moment, Kvothe suddenly realized he knew who his adversary truly was; he could almost hear His true name on the wind. Kvothe said the strange words: “Jesus Christ…” and the Lion began to shimmer out of his existence…
Before Kvothe could go on, he was interrupted by a heavy sigh. It was Chronicler. “Of all the stories you have told me so far,” Chronicler said, “this is perhaps the most incredible. Do you mean to tell me that you… killed a god?“
“Well, bested might be more accurate…”
“Kvothe Godkiller… I like the sound of that.” Chronicler smiled as he wrote it down.
Kvothe dismissed the title with a wave of his hand. “Oh, it was nothing. Not even my greatest adventure. It’s only the first day, after all. I haven’t told you everything yet, scribe. My story is far from over.”
Predicted Winner: Kvothe
(Aslan is a character from C. S. Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia; Kvothe is a character from Patrick Rothfuss’s The Name of the Wind.)
RFPII, nice comments, you clearly know your logic. However, our chief point of disagreement is that I view your major premise as an assumption that relies on the theology of the Trinity to make the connection between Aslan and omnipotence. The primary rationale for disagreement is that Aslan’s behaviors and statements in TCON are very much at odds with your premise that Jesus=omnipotence/omniscience. Rather, Lewis is presenting a very different vision of Jesus as an actor constrained by the Deeper Magic, in which he participates, but is not master. I agree with you that he didn’t have to mention it specifically, but all of the actual references point in the other direction, and highlight Aslan’s limitations as an incarnation of Jesus in a fictional world, not God him/her/itself. Based on evidence from TCON, Aslan is not omnipotent, even by implication or omission.
We’re clearly arguing theology here, and perhaps we should just agree to disagree. Your syllogism is logically valid, but questionable major premises do not lead to inescapable conclusions. I too have enjoyed this discussion, but perhaps we should start looking for ways to make peace, in order to avoid starting a flame war in the am. Open to suggestions.
And RFPII, at least no one can credibly accuse us of being fanboys, or “emos”
Well, I disagree with your assertion that Aslan is an actor vs. initiator but the only way to convince you would drift closer and closer to a theology debate. (My major premise is rooted in the major premise of the NT so I’ll stand by it because we’re taking these characters as prima facie). I truly can’t see how you can have Aslan be Jesus and then argue he’s not but I’ll concede at this point if you still disagree, I can’t add anything beyond what’s been written.
With that said, I’ll simply reiterate my initial objection that Aslan doesn’t belong in this match. And, as my arguments haven’t appeared to sway any of the other voters (as he’s now losing worse than before) I’ll wait patiently until I have to quietly admit defeat to Kvothe. Math, like logic, when correctly applied, is unassailable
Assuming Kvothe wins then, I assume we’d agree he’d beat everyone else? After all, your arguments dictate he’ll have access to all of the character’s stories and thus, true names. As I understand the character, that’s all that is needed, no?
Oh, and I’ve been called a lot worse than either “fanboy” or “emo”
Easily the best post I’ve read all day…
kylar would have been an excellent addition to this bracket.
RFPII, Kvothe does not necessarily win in the future. C.S. Lewis’ stories are widely circulated, and likely to be available in his library. Their basis is also unusually transparent, that is not necessarily true for the other characters. So, Kvothe wins this round, but he may well have big fights on his hands in the future. The arguments that have carried him thus far by no means guarantee future victory. Raistlin would pose an entirely different kind of challenge, let’s deal with that if and when it comes.
RFPII, as I’ve said in other ways, where we disagree is on what it means for “Aslan to be Jesus”. I concur, let the votes decide at this point. Still, good argument, and let’s see what tomorrow brings.
If Kvothe advances after this round, it does not mean that he will win the tournament.
Why so?
Because if one thing is clear about round 2, than it’s the swing in the mood of participants: They got bored of the expectation to see all gods, demigods and almostgods yawning their way into the finals. That’s the only explanation why Gandalf, the Shrike, Aslan, Polgara and Cthulhu are out or almost out.
In round 3, the whole deck will be shuffled anew. Maybe people go back to the idea that the stronger one should logically win. Maybe they suddenly realize that the tournament is heavily loaded with wizards, and start to eliminate the magic users.
Maybe something completely else happens.
That’s the nature of the game, I guess.
I meant that for Kvothe, Aslan would not exist, so being the only “real” character he would automatically win. There would be no fight in that case, because Aslan cannot influence those who do not believe in Narnia.
I fell asleep somewhere during round 497 of the theological challenge portion of this match. Did I miss anything??
Where’s that damn ale vendor?
RFPII:
If I followed your argument, you are saying that Jesus is a fictional character? In that case – along with the rest of your argument – I think you’ve made a strong point for an Aslan victory. Is there some way that I can change my vote from Kvothe?
“For purposes of discussion, I’m assuming that is the “Cagematch Universe”, because there has to be some place for all of these characters to get together. Since the Cagematch itself is taking place in our universe, our rules apply, and Aslan would be visible to Kvothe.”
I agree, as for the purpose of a fight, they would have to see each other. However, for the universe – isn’t the children’s home world very similar to our universe? And Aslan seems to have little power there – his abilities seem to be mostly Narnia specific.
This is the difficulty with matches like this one. Sorting out exactly which abilities are transferrable to the cage match is tricky without guidelines.
Thank you, Mr. Rothfuss. Snarky and noble all at the same time.
Technically I’m not saying Jesus *IS* a purely fictional charcater (theologically WAY beyond the scope of this forum and not a position I’d want to defend anyway). What I’m saying is that if we are taking all of these characters at their literary face value (prima facie) then we must accept the Jesus in literature (i.e., the Bible) as such purely for the sake of this arument. This isn’t evangalism, it is an attempt to give each character their due. The Jesus character would be beyond the scope of any posited here, much the same way YWHW of the Torah or Allah of the Koran would be (which is why I’ve repeatedly stated that Aslan doesn’t belong here). Where Citizen and I have have so civily disagreed is where the Aslan = Jesus (as a character) breaks down.
About Kvothe winning: Again, I haven’t (yet) read the book so my argument hinged on very limited understanding of the character. The way I understand his power to work, he has access to the books of *reality* and thus can discover the true names of beings and objects. If that is true, I have a hard time seeing how he could lose to any of the other literary characters (e.g., Raistlin is one of the most well established chracter in literature appearing in numerous books/magazines/gaming supplements). If I’ve somehow misinterpreted his abilities, I’ll gladly stand corrected.
Thanks folks. This is fun–ale vendor or no ale vendor!
i believe everyone should read rothfuss scenario and concede victory to kvothe for logical reasons based on aslans character which is way better than basing it on stuff thats not in the book
Ahhhh, Patrick Rothfuss… You Sir are awesome. Love it love it love it!
Citizen-
If you look at the Dumbledore/Raistlin scenario, Dumbledore goes to Raistlin’s universe. And, it is totally within Aslan’s power to travel to Kvothe’s universe. He’s traveled across different universes before.
In which case, his universe rules apply.
However, since the Narnia series takes place throughout multiple universes, it’s slightly self-evident that Aslan’s rules/powers would still apply in Kvothe’s universe. Rendering him invisible to Kvothe.
I voted for who I would want to shag.
It wasn’t the lion.
That is all.
If Kvothe can’t see Aslan, it doesn’t mean that Aslan doesn’t exist – as Aslan is still there. Otherwise,whenever the Shrike disappeared, it ceased to exist and Drizzt won. Whenever Dumbledore? turned invisible, he ceased to exist, and lost.
Is that why Dumbledore and the Shrike lost? lol
I refer you back to my previous post, where even though the dwarves couldn’t see Aslan, Aslan still influenced them by making fruit/food appear in their hand. So, of course he could still affect Kvothe and still exists.
Now, what would happen if he made a knife appear in the air above those dwarves? It’d fall on their heads and they’d die?
He could do the same to Kvothe – but my point is that he could still kill or defeat Kvothe, even if Kvothe doesn’t see him or -think- he exists.
well done, Pat. Not only do you give a logical yet humerous solution for Kvothe to win, but you also give credit to Aslan and give him uber respect in the process. Again, well done.
And to anyone who has yet to read Pat’s book, it has not taken forever. In fact, both the second and third books are already written, he just had to take some time off from editing for very personal reasons that he explains in his blog (which is another reason I love this man. his blog is A+).
Plus, he has a beard that Chuck Norris would die for.
My hat is off to Mr. Rothfuss.
Of course, the same tactic won’t work in the next battle if the voting trends don’t change before the end. I don’t think there’s much mileage to be found in appealing to Raistlin’s better nature.
That’s okay… I’ll still be voting for Kvothe.
You have a valid point with the dwarf arguement – but that was in Narnia, while this match does not necessarily take place there- as I said in my previous comment, Aslan does not have the same powers in the real world as he does in Narnia. For example, he can’t really affect the children in tCoN until they are actually in Narnia. If the match is in Narniaverse, then Kvothe is in trouble- but if it’s on a level playing field he would have the advantage.
I don’t remember enough about tCON, nor remember what book that stands for, to dispute your claim.
So, I’ll concede your point.
However, just read the author’s point of view, and I can see how Kvothe would realistically win…
Pats beard is actually a planting from Chucks beard. Chucks awesomeness manifested itself into Pats writing. Its also where he is hiding book two.
Rothfuss has spoken. His scenario acknowledges Alsan’s greatness, and requires no theology. Let the voting proceed.
I love Kvothe, loved the first book, and am pulling for him in this one. My problem is not with how Kvothe beats Aslan, but it’s rather that I feel none of us (apart from Rothfuss himself) really understands Kvothe’s powers. After all, in the book we have only seen him as a child. We do not know how he earned all of his fame nor do we know exactly the extent of his powers.
I love Kvothe, loved the first book, and am pulling for him in this one. My problem is not with how Kvothe beats Aslan, but it’s rather that I feel none of us (apart from Rothfuss himself) really understands Kvothe’s powers. After all, in the book we have only seen him as a child. We do not know how he earned all of his fame nor do we know exactly the extent of his powers.
Who the fuck cares about these pointless pseudo-philosophical arguments when Kvothe is much more awesome then Aslan? I don’t care if Aslan is the Creator of the Multiverse, as far as I’m concerned, Kvothe has a default win just by virtue of his pure awesomeness. Nuff said.
The reason we care is because awesomeness does not determine who would win in a cage match. I believe that Gurgi (Chronicles of Prydain anyone?) is awesome, but I would not bet on him against a rock.
Would the all-powerful Aslan consent to be placed in a cage match that goes against his moral grounding? I don’t think that Lion-Jesus would a) Let someone tell him what to do or b) Fight someone for no reason…
Kvothe FTW
Oh, and one last thing: why was the White Witch scared of Aslan if He’s so vulnerable? White Witch vs. Kvothe = Kvothe turned into a stone statue. If she was so powerful then Aslan must be more powerful still, correct?
I enjoyed Mr. Rothfuss’s story a great deal more than the one posted by Suvudu. However, I still think it downplays the sheer sovereignty-for lack of a better term-of Aslan. Couldn’t Aslan simply defeat Kvothe and then resurrect him? The terms of the match seem to indicate you only have to incapacitate the opponent for the match to end, otherwise GRRM’s resolution is anything but a resolution as Cthulhu is still around. That being the case, Asalan would still win to better show his authority and power while mitigating the “despair in the hearts and minds of thousands.” Everyone, well, except Kvothe
, wins.
RFPII, don’t you see, Aslan’s “sovereignty” is so supreme (especially in Heaven-Narnia, since Peter shut the door on the original Narnia) that he has nothing to prove. He has no need to win a cage match to demonstrate anything – walking away is states his power more clearly than fighting.
Um, then why would He show up in the first place? Is this a Kvothe power? To lure opponents out just to convince them of the futility of defeating him?
And, quite frankly, it wouldn’t be much of a fight by even Mr. Rothfuss’s assesment. Indeed, if death isn’t necessary to win, he could just paralyze Kvothe, look out on the world, breathe on Kvothe to revive him, and walk away. Aslan still wins, He doesn’t need to kill anyone, Kvothe’s followers are safe from unending mental anguish and Kvothe learn’s a valuable lesson: there’s a world of difference between the main character and the Mane character.
We agree Aslan doesn’t need to be here but He is so he should win…and by the numbers He’s getting closer.
RFPII. A couple of reasons why he might show up:
1. To show Kvothe that his naming powers don’t work in Narnia.
2. Because he is surprised that Kvothe came to his home turf.
3. Alternatively, because Kvothe’s naming powers do work in Narnia, so when Kvothe called, he came.
One of Kvothe’s “powers” is his deviousness. He outwits or outargues people as much as he overpowers them.
In any case, Rothfuss obviously liked C.S. Lewis as a kid, and the Mane thing was a very nice touch, as was the “Thank God” bit. I thought it was very gracefully done, allowing Kvothe to advance while also showing respect for Aslan.
1. Then I was right before.
2. Let’s get back to this in a second.
3. Rothfuss argued that this was not the case. Oh, and I was right before
Looking at number two again: I’m gonna need some actual evidence from the books that Aslan was ever outsmarted, tricked, or bamboozled. Nowhere in tCoN was Aslan ever portrayed as surprised or unprepared by any of the events. Quite the contrary, he walked in full accordance with the Deep Magic which outlined exactly what had to be. Nothing that was done either by His companions nor His enemies caught Aslan with His tail down. Even you admit that Aslan is “so supreme.” Thus, supposing Kvothe is the Locke Lamorra (fantastic books BTW–too bad he went up against another deus ex machina) of his world, how do you surprise Aslan on his? Rothfuss’s writing is great and I imagine he nailed Kvothe perfectly (duh) but I’m not convinced Aslan has any of the limitations that have been suggested.
RFPII,
1. You’ve been right about several things before
2. Kvothe is outside of the strictures of the Deeper Magic, at least before he comes to heaven-Narnia, so that act could surprise Aslan.
3. It doesn’t matter, Kvothe doesn’t need naming to work in Narnia to win.
4. The whole thing about Aslan’s omnipotence yes/no is irrelevant if Kvothe talks him into conceding.
I have to go away. Hope you can find someone else to debate.
if your asking why aslan just doesnt kill him and revive him, you obviously dont know what morals are. the end result would end with kvothe being alive but in the process aslan would still be killing an innocent. what your suggesting is that the ends justify the means which if that was true many villians in history would actually be decent folk
Ok, one more: The number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin is 42. Deep Thought said so
@ citizen: Thanks and its been fun.
@ jordan: This is a cage match to the death for nothing but the sheer spectacle of seeing one hero defeat another–I didn’t realize we were discussing the morality of said event. However, I acknowledge that Aslan wouldn’t kill someone if the act was unneccessary to achieve victory: “Indeed, if death isn’t necessary to win, he could just paralyze Kvothe, look out on the world, breathe on Kvothe to revive him, and walk away.” I wrote that above. I believe this more accurately portrays Aslan but most of the matches, including the write-up from the editors, required the destruction of one of the contestants thus my earlier posting. I certainly do NOT believe the ends justify the means and ad hominem attacks are uncalled for.
@ citizen #2: touche!
Way to tell ‘em, Pat. Eloquent, as always.
The result might be different, I think. If you need a “true name”, “Jesus Christ” isn’t actually accurate. Reasons:
1. “Christ” was not part of Jesus’ name. It was his TITLE, not his name, and means “Anointed One”. Therefore, using “Christ” to name him would be incorrect and thus not his “true” name. In an English representation, his appropriate name (note: not “true” name) is Jesus of Nazareth or Christ Jesus of Nazareth. The title should come before the proper name. You don’t call Dr. House “Gregory Doctor” or “Gregory House Doctor”, so you wouldn’t (grammatically) call Jesus “Jesus Christ”. Title comes first and in my opinion has no place in a “True Name”.
2. “Jesus” isn’t even accurate, it’s a transliteration of a Greek/Latin name “Iesus” and also may be a derivative of “Yeshua”, the Hebrew name that is the basis for “Joshua”. The name “Jesus” didn’t come forth until after translation and transliteration took place.
These two considerations are semantic alone and do not even take into account the philosophy of whether or not he even has a true name (being as he is one of three “pieces” that make up God–the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit) or whether anyone other than God is even capable of speaking such a name. Among men, the God of Abraham is attributed many names: Allah, Jehova/Jehovah, and YHWH (unpronouncable but approximated as “Yahweh”) being the most well-known of these. If it were in fact “God’s Name” that must be spoken, and not Jesus’ true name, even this would be difficult (if not impossible according to Christian/Abrahamic mythology).
I’d like to emphasize that I’m not arguing this from the Christian standpoint of “It’s Jesus/God, you can’t beat Jesus/God”–only from the concrete semantic standpoints based on Jesus’ name and title translations/transliterations and on the supposed semantic standpoints that apply in the case that God is real. I make no claim to my standpoint on that issue.
Also: I love lions, and the Narnia series is a very highly regarded classic staple of literature. Alsan has my vote.
Aslan doesn’t exist and Narnia is one of the worst series I’ve ever read. At least the Name of the Wind was readable.
Kvothe wins
PAT! I loved what you did with that blurb!!!! Awesome!
This wasn’t exactly a tough one for me, I admit it. I’m a HUGE Kvothe fan. That said, though, while I was fully intending in my own irrational, fanboyish way to vote for Kvothe all the way, it was Mr. Rothfuss’s excellent scenario that has allowed me to no longer feel even marginally guilty about my decision.
Bravo!
I personally think Pat’s blurb is a better way for things to go down. It shows respect for both characters.
Kovthe can easily kill Aslan, Aslan would probably roll over and die for him just to give him a chance to redeem himself. There is nothing in the rules that says he has to STAY dead. It’s still a deathmatch win as far as i’m concerned.
LOL
Cain BlackKnife Owns All!
If we can get Kvothe and Jaime Lannister to the final round we will get a blurb-off between Patrick Rothfuss and George R. R. Martin! Come on people that would be epic!
” If we can get Kvothe and Jaime Lannister to the final round we will get a blurb-off between Patrick Rothfuss and George R. R. Martin! Come on people that would be epic!”
semi final, but it would really be cool. An epic battle to decide