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Kills
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Kills
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High above them the sky was blue, blank, and cloudless, and seemed innocent of any gods. And yet it might have been that forces were massing invisibly behind the two men; though the gunslinger and the sorceror stood alone as they faced each other before the battle, it could be said that each had a higher power on his side.
In Roland’s world, it is called ka. In Rand al’Thor’s, it is the Wheel of Time. They are guided, protected, blessed, burdened, and cursed by these forces; in mysterious, unseen hands are their fates written. Ka has always guided Roland to the Tower, through all his endless lifetimes; the Pattern is woven around Rand.
But these were not the only powers that ruled this match.
Before the battle, another yet more ferocious battle was raging in the stands, as wagers were taken, the odds rose and fell by the hour, and long, boozy arguments were carried over from tailgate parties to the arena benches. Though the tumult in the stands was nearly deafening, every voice sought to answer the same question: What was it, after all, that would decide this battle? Some referred to ancient and immutable laws–Guns beat swords. Magic beats guns–in endless philosophical rock-paper-scissors-style throwdowns. Convoluted quasi-theological arguments parsing the nature of ka, the vast and mysterious workings of the Pattern, grew thick and fast like choking vines.
The Tower junkies and WoT fanboys raised voices, raised fists…and raised glasses in celebration of the two great warriors before them. In the end, their applause would prove greater than either ka or the Wheel.
But as the match began, Roland gave no thought to cultivating their adoration, to converting those skeptics who had doubted he could take down the Elric and Gandalf–there was no time. No matter how it ended, it would end quickly…so quickly that later few who watched could even describe what they saw.
It was agreed that Roland must have drawn his guns. It could even be seen on the instant replay after the match–though only when played back in slow motion, and even then the motion of the gunslinger’s hands was a bright and blinding blur.
And even the most fervent Tower junkies could not argue that Rand al’Thor–now the highest-ranking seed left in the tournament, the oddsmakers noted–had not been ready, or that he did not have great, universe-shattering powers to call on. After all, the destruction of both Locke Lamora and Conan had been the work of an instant.
But it happened in less than an instant, in a unit of time so small it cannot be measured or named.
It was only for Roland that the event was perfectly perceivable; it had happened in the strange field of infinitely slow time that only gunslingers know. It was as if, when Roland drew his father’s guns, he had years to line up his sights and find just the right spot in the center of Rand al’Thor’s forehead. That the bullet took another decade to fly to its target straight and true. That the pitiless fusillade of bullets that followed–after fighting Elric and Gandalf, Roland knew that it was better to be safe than sorry–seemed to him as the stately movement of the planets around the sun.
As the bullets slammed into the sorceror’s body, Roland saw Rand hang suspended in the air, borne aloft by the impact of each bullet, for so painfully long that the old sorrows gripped his heart; another hero dead, and all for the Tower. He watched each droplet of blood gleam in the sunlight, soar through the air, and fall to the ground to darkly stain the dust. When Rand’s body finally fell to the ground it was slowly, heavily, with all the weight of the terrible deed, only the latest in his long and cursed life, that Roland had wrought.
The world around Roland slid into focus again. The killing had ended, for now.
For a moment, but only for a moment, the stands fell silent as the stunned audience wondered if they could believe what they had seen. And then they raised their voices…
Predicted Winner: Roland Deschain
(Rand Al’Thor is a character from Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time series; Roland Deschain is a character from Stephen King’s Dark Tower series.)
NefariousSage, Gandalf is not on Rand’s scale… He is certainly more experienced, even with the merging of Lews Therin, and I can see a few scenarios in which he would beat Rand, but his magic is not as fast or as destructive. Gandalf v Rand would be interesting, but I would put my money on Rand.
OK, I’ve read both the series here, so let’s go through this.
1. Ta’veren v. Ka: Ka won’t let Roland die any more than the Ta’veren status will let Rand lose. We’ve got something of a wash here, with major forces of destiny running into each other. I’m thinking that’s going to be a wash.
2. Balefire: Is not Rand’s first reaction to any situation. It’s a last-ditch, not a first shot. I think we’re all in consensus that this fight is going to be over one way or another within a split second, so balefire isn’t going to play a part in this fight.
3. Seizing Saidin: This is an almost instantaneous action by Rand, so we can operate on the assumption that this time isn’t going to hinder Rand in the fight.
4. The first move: Roland basically has one first move; draw and plug Rand as quickly as possible. Rand has a number of first moves; does he defend? Let’s look at his history. Most of Rand’s fights begin with someone else attacking, and Rand defending. I am attempting to think of an instance where Rand goes for a blitz kill instead of an opening defense. It’s eluding me. So we can assume that Rand will throw up his shield to deflect Roland’s bullet. If that shield works, this fight is all Rands. If it does not, Rand dies with his brains exploding out the back of his head.
Here’s the kicker: We have an example of this same circumstance from The Dark Tower. Specifically, the end of Wizard and Glass, Book Four; Roland fires on a Wizard using a magical force-field as a defense. But he uses a bullet not of that mage’s world, and so the bullet is unaffected by the magic.
What is Saidin? It’s the male half of the One Power; the power that drives the Wheel of Time. Therefore, it’s only going to be able to affect things that are of the Wheel of Time universe. Roland’s bullets are going to be (most likely) from Earth in 1984, a different universe than Rand’s. Even if the battle takes place in Rand’s world, Rand’s magic is not going to stop the bullet.
I’m not saying that, if Rand is forewarned of Roland’s ability to pierce that shield, that Rand doesn’t do something else and win. Of course, if Roland were informed of Rand’s abilities, Rand would eventually just get shot in his sleep some time.
The point here is that it’s going to be a squeaker, but based on the behaviors and tactics that these two characters seem to use, Roland is going to be left standing at the end of the day.
Can’t think of any instances where rand attacks… really Rallenar?
*spoiler warning*
He plans for several days, builds a tower, then crushes everything he can see from it when he takes Cairhein.
He moves to take Caemlyn in what is the defenition of a blitz.
When he moved on Sammael as well, he prepared for months before enacting a plan that left the Forsaken with no choice but to run.
He lures Ashaman into Far Madding so he can murder them without the one power.
Every time he KNOWS he is going to fight, he plans for it, and plays to crush. In gathering storm this is made rather clear.
The fights where he “reacts” aren’t cage matches that he knows about in advance, they are him getting “jumped.” Roland catches rand at an ATM, sure, he mows him down. They walk into an arena… Rand is no fool, he has something planned.
Double post but I almost forgot. More spoilers.
How about when he hunts down Ishmael in the stone of Tear? He chases him down and as for reaction time, the guy blocks/deflects balefire with callandor.
Rand is overpowered.
In response to Rallenor, rand doesnt use “magic” as most definitions see it. He controls the elements, Fire, Earth, Air, Water, and Spirit. These used in combination create the mystical and powerful things that can destroy/heal any item of their choice. While the bullets may move through a magical force field, they can not move through a wall of solid, super condensed air any more than they can move right through a rock of Rand’s universe (unless its a really small one). As for deflecting Balefire, I’m on my third re-read of WoT and i dont recall him deflecting Balefire, only normal fire. Anything that is touched by balefire, which callandor would be included in, winks out of existance. Makes it touch to block.
One of balefire’s seeming weaknesses is that it’s a little slow to weave this channeling attack before firing it off. This gives people the chance to counter it or dodge and prevents it from being sort of the ultimate attack.
Also it was doing horrible damage to the world and the wheel of time to use this power. Horrible damage. Wiping out a city with this power turned into a complete mess.
Balefire on Roland would be a bit difficult, better to kill him with lightning, fire, lasers, invisible air razors or instant death bio-manipulation.
As for Roland’s attacks. Roland can totally kill Rand as long as his destiny manipulation and cleverness can bypass Rand’s magic wards and super senses. Roland needs to take him by surprise, with a really fast energy attack or say some instant death poison gas otherwise Rand will easily barrier up with invisible steel air shields.
It isn’t impossible to assassinate Rand, or beat him, plenty of people have come close to the former and others have accomplished the latter.
Assuming no channeling or tying off weaves before getting into the match, Rand has to draw in the power and then start weaving which takes a little time. Time he doesn’t have against a gun.
Assuming Rand knows what he’s facing, isn’t completely nutso currently, and is allowed to hold his powers ready he’s going to win this one.
Rand’s other real weakness by the way is being resigned to the status of minor character in the fantasy series he stars in. Oh yeah and he’s also crazy enough to let a woman kill him rather than harm her, unless she’s a female magic user, he hates those. So how would Roland look in a dress?
Rallenar, …what?
1. Has Ka ever caused two large flocks of birds to collide and every single bird fall to the ground dead? Sorry, Ta’veren is stronger by it’s more direct nature.
2. He wiped an entire mountain fortress from existence before anyone knew he was there.
3. Alright, fair enough. We’re just assuming that the nausea doesn’t affect him after The Gathering Storm. Of course, he doesn’t like seizing Saidin in front of anyone, he would come to the match holding it.
4. Magniloquent’s post covers this pretty well. You are right though, Rand on the defense quite a bit.
Your ‘kicker’ is completely irrelevant. Rand’s barrier wouldn’t be made of any magical energy whatsoever. Air is common in just about every universe, yes? This is no force field, it’s air that is so dense you can block crossbow bolts with it or use it as a razor if your wish.
You seem to know enough about both characters anyways, has it just been a while since you read either series? Or did you wikipedia it like I’ve been doing for the other brackets?
I do not feel I need to do a write up on this as I did for Rands v Conan fight. I feel the author at the top did it perfect justice and I am in total agreement of Roland winning this match. Reasons:
1)Roland draws faster than Rand weaves. I have read both series and I fully believe that Roland has the higher initiative (to use gaming terms) and if Roland goes first, he wins.
2)Rolands guns are MAGICAL! If I remember correctly (and I could be wrong on this) they are the gun equivalent of Excalibur! Point being, they might even get past a shield if Rand somehow was cheating and hat time to weave a shield.
3)Balefire can be dodged/blocked. Cuindilar(pardon my spelling, I dont have one of the WoT books in front of me) and other power wrought items cannot be destroyed by Balefire. Roland could side-step and or POSSIBLY (emphasis on the POSSIBLY) deflect the Balefire with highly magical guns.
To emphasis my point on how fast Roland is, in the first “Gunslinger” book, Roland kills an entire town, of like a hundred + people, with 2 six shooter. He shoots faster than the speed of thought, and reloads in an instant! Rand is not bullet proof and Balefire is not fullproof. All the gods are dead after Rand and in my opinion the only one with a chance of beating Roland now is Kvothe.
Lexington out
the only reasoning you need to know why rand wins is simple he is the strongest ta’veren ever to live witch means the pattern forms itself around him so in that case when roland pulled the trigger the pattern would simply cause the gun to misfire and then rand would kill him with some arrows of fire
Exactly. He wouldn’t be worried about the guy going for something on his belt, because he wouldn’t recognize them for what they are. By the time he hears the boom from the guns, which would be his first clue that the little things on the other fellows belt aren’t going to be thrown, there’s a few extra grains of lead in his head, followed rapidly by a few less pounds of grey matter. Most people don’t do so good when their heads are forcefully evacuated like that.
“He wouldn’t be worried about the guy going for something on his belt, because he wouldn’t recognize them for what they are.”
I know this has been mentioned before up there in the comments, but Rand has Lews Therin in his head and in the Age of Legends they had “shocklances” which, judging from the evidence available, were some sort of ranged gun-like weapon. LT would have memories of this. I think it’s safe to say that Rand would be warned not to underestimate the things on the other guys belt.
You know why I’m voting for Rand?
There was this dude on Malygos sever who named his paladin after Roland, and he was annoying.
Plus, Roland has a french last name with an anglicized spelling. Screw that.
This isn’t really relevant to this battle, but I simply can’t resist…
“Gandalf is not on Rand’s scale” Are you kidding?
Ta’veren or not, Rand is still a man, Gandalf is an ancient demi-god who cannot die and possesses power and wisdom far beyond anything Rand could even comprehend, let alone match.
Rand is def no slouch, but you’re still basically comparing a man to a God, and in this case the man has no chance.
So to my original point, if Roland can kill Gandalf he easily kills Rand. I really don’t agree with it, but if there’s supposed to be any continuity in this tournament that is the only possible outcome I can see.
There is no way Rand would waste Balefire on a regular human (Roland’s got some skills but he IS human!) with no channeling ability.
So what if Roland is fast enough to shoot him? When Rand falls to the floor with half a pound of lead in his skull, it would have to be the head or Roland would lose, a murder (cooler than pack) of Asha’man would swoop in and BF the little shit into oblivion and Rand would be fine! If Drizzt “Cheatmaster” Do’Urden can bring his friends to all the fights then so can the Dragon Reborn!!!
A sure way for Roland to win: Wear a dress. Rand will hesitate, not wanting to kell another woman…..
Roland’s protected by Ka! So long as Rand is standing in way of Ka, Roland can’t lose! The tower beckons!
Rand is protected by his Ta’veren nature. If Roland gets in his way, Roland of Gilead goes away. The Last Battle Looms!
Its a Deus ex machina tie.
Those bullets from 1984 Earth were made in the same universe as Rand al’Thor… On the same Earth, in fact. If you read interviews by Robert Jordan, the Wheel of Time series takes place on Earth, in the faraway future. This being the First Age, the Second Age being our techno-singular awakening, the Breaking and the Third Age being Rand’s, and so on and so forth until the end of time.
So that inter-dimensional bullet theory penetrating Rand’s shields go out the window.
Rand can set up all sorts of weaves before they started the match even. He could set traps with the one power to cause Roland’s guns to explode when he draws them, or various other things Rand wins hands down.
I disagree with this whole gandalf is a demi god so he destroy rand. I completely agree that gandalf is much much wiser than rand. Now an unrestricted gandalf vs rand will certainly be a epic battle but due to the nature of the one power rand would be very much god like even in lord of rings terms.
on a side note it would be so much easier for frodo if rand took over the spot of gandalf. Rand would have no need to hold back and just pwned everything. Most importantly, rand could just teleport frodo all the way to mount dome with either traveling or skimming
I could write pages of detailed arguments on why Roland could possibly get the drop on Rand, but let’s try it in 3 paragraphs.
OK, so try this test to get an idea how much time Rand would need to react to seeing Roland’s hand move: http://cognitivefun.net/test/18. Rand’s reaction time is trained, but not superhuman, so it probably compares with some of the higher scores. Now consider that weaving the Source is more cognitively complex than twitching a mouse finger, and thus would take a bit longer. Lastly, consider that if Roland (like Han) shoots first, Rand perceives nothing until Roland’s hand moves, at which point I call it inconceivable to predict a reaction in less than 0.25 s.
The arguments about Rand catching a crossbow bolt and about stopping lightning don’t work. Due to a ta’veren twist, he happened to look at the rooftop in time to see the crossbow shooter fire. And in the lightning examples, Rand can feel the bolt being woven before it comes; that’s how he dodges, and it provides yet more evidence that weaving the Source is slow enough that a person has at least 1/4 of a second to react to a forming weave.
So how fast do Roland’s hands move? The literature suggests nothing beyond “superhuman,” which is faster than Rand’s lit supports. How fast are .45 bullets? Someone quoted 1150 m/s, so at 50m, that takes 1/23 s = 0.04 s, barely significant.
Whew. All that just to establish that Roland can get the drop on Rand. But of course magniloquent made an excellent point about how Rand was perfectly willing to wipe out an entire palace with its serving staff in GS just to kill a Forsaken. Of course, Sanderson isn’t one for real moral ambiguity, and so he wrote it in that their minds were all completely destroyed by Compulsion already, but I’ll still count it as a dangerous precedent. It makes me glad I didn’t vote, because I was for Roland all the way when I was assuming they would see each other, face-to-face, before the match. Now I’m unsure.
Ross, you’re making a few questionable assumptions.
1. You assume that Rand would “compare with some of the higher scores”. Why wouldn’t he score superhuman as well, given the crawl that seizing saidin and the Void bestow? There were times in the Dark Tower where wizards blocked Roland’s sixgun shots, so we can safely bet reacting the gunslinger’s draw is plausible, and in Rand’s case of heightened senses, doubly plausible.
2. You surmise that fatal weaves take longer than .25 seconds to manifest, and you place it on the precipice of Roland being the first to act, where Rand could easily be the first to attack.
3. Only a very special .45 round travels at that speed, the Cor-Bon DPX (or the 558 Federal) both of which did not exist in 1984. Supersonic ammunition in general would have been unlikely to find in New York City, even in the 80s…
Roland’s .45s are probably casts that fly around 800 fps.
I agree that incidents like splitting the beam of balefire in Tear with callandor and catching the crossbow bolt couldn’t have been attributed to normal human reflex. Incidents like that seem to be depicted more as instinct, or even premonition rather than reflex, such as when he instinctively brings up callandor to bisect a beam of balefire at Tear (likely he sensed the weaves being formed). Still, his reactions/premonition/instinct seem to be vastly heightened whenever he is throwing around vast amounts of power, it would definitely takes superhuman reflexes of some sort to counter some of the stuff that was thrown at Tear such as the air being turned to fire etc. His reaction is to instinctively throw enough of sadin at the weaves that they cancel them before they can do any harm. While catching a bullet with sadin might seem like a stretch, I think the premonition-like levels of instinct he seems to get when he’s channeling vast amounts of the power would give him the edge.
Perhaps I’m being cranky, but I for one am getting tired of hearing about how Roland’s preternatural quickness basically defies the laws of physics and biology, coupled with discussions of the relative “muzzle” velocity of Roland’s bullets vs. the implementation speed of Rand’s various attacks and defenses. What ever rules you want to argue for playing by within these cage matches, at least keep them consistent within a single post.
Sneh
P.S. Although I’ve moved on some years ago, Internet Security used to be an important element of my job description.
Meh, I stopped voting since its all fanbois anyway……
Still I think Roland will win….
My last 2 cents has nothing to do with this fight… Raistlin losing to Dumbeldore….WTF?!
Rand wins hands down. don’t forget he has heightened senses when holding the POWER. He will see Roland’s hands moving the moment roland twitches and release whatever weaves he has in place, shield of air, balefire, threads threads of air to trap roland, burst the earth from under rolands feet call down lightning out of a clear sky, and so on,etc,.etc,…..rand wins hands down…
If you look at Rand’s current history, he usually comes into a fight grasping saidin so the sickness wouldn’t likely be an issue. Also, his weaves, especially defensive ones, are often instantaneous and without thought. Roland, on the other hand, draws and fires, faster than thought. Both are unlikely to go for an immediate kill though.
I predict there’ll be a pause before the killing. Roland fires incapacitating yet non-lethal shots, because Rand doesn’t seem to be a major threat, removing Rands obvious weapons (sword, ect.). Rand raises defensive weaves and attacks with similar incapacitating attacks. Roland’s further attacks are blocked by the defensive weaves. Rand gets mad and wipes Roland out.
Of course if Rand has an insane moment his first attack may be lethal and he may act first. Basically, I think Rand with his multitude of offensive and defensive capabilities (hand-to-hand and magical) will beat Roland’s singular offensive capability despite it’s strength.
Rand will take the cake on this one. Roland may be a B.A. gunslinger, but we’re talking bullets versus the One Power. Even if Roland and Rand start at the same time, Rand will win because his magic will hit first.
Plus, he doesn’t even have to use balefire. Remember all that crazy magic he pulled off against the trollocs when Lews Therin took control of the one power? That was some crazy s$$t. I’m not sure bullets can stand up to that kind of damage.
Having read neither book i have no opinion on who would win but i have one comment. People disagreeing about which version of rand to use, sane or insane, depending on whether we’re taking him from the end of the book, should remember that for some characters in this competion taking them from the end wouldn’t work (eg Dumbledor RIP).
We should probalby use an incarnation which he spends the greatest amount of time in the books as, otherwise we might just as well take him from the beggining when he has no magic, no sword and considerably more sanity
Если есть справедливость на свете, то Роланд победит.
“From reading comments it sounds like Balefire is the most badass rewind button ever which would make for lame reading methinks.”
Hey Joe. You Suck.
Alas, Roland has pulled his last trigger–at least in Cage Match.
Can anyone stop Rand?
It’s now up to Drizzt–the little drow elf that could.
See our recap of this round here:
http://bit.ly/9×9dFi
And make sure to check out the Final Four match-up between Drizzt and Rand (and Jaime Lannister versus Kvothe), starting here:
http://bit.ly/9StqPP
When holding the One Power Rand is fast enough to form a shield to block bolts of lightning after they’ve formed. That’s a few hundred times faster than a mere bullet.
Relevant quotes:
“The Forsaken did not slow, and as he vanished, lightning flashed from the glowing clouds toward Rand, stabbing blindly but meant to kill. Running, Rand wove a shield around himself. Shards of stone bounded from it as he dodged crackling blue bolts, leaped over the holes they tore in the pavement. The air itself sparkled; the hair of his arms lifted with it, the hair on his head stirred.”
-The Shadow Rising
“Lightning stabbed from the cloudless sky.
Rand wove Fire and Air to meet Fire and Air, a slow-spreading shield racing lightnings’ fall. Too slow. One bolt struck the shield directly above his head, shattering in a blinding glare, but others grounded themselves, and his hair lifted as the air itself seemed to hammer him down.”
-The Fires of Heaven
No way in hell is a gunslinger going to beat him to the punch.