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	<title>Comments on: Dance Interview: With George R. R. Martin Editor Anne Groell</title>
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	<link>http://sf-fantasy.suvudu.com/2011/07/dance-interview-with-george-r-r-martin-editor-anne-groell.html</link>
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		<title>By: Stefan24601</title>
		<link>http://sf-fantasy.suvudu.com/2011/07/dance-interview-with-george-r-r-martin-editor-anne-groell.html/comment-page-1#comment-34036</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefan24601</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2011 00:24:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://suvudu.com/?p=19273#comment-34036</guid>
		<description>I would like to add that my comment is from someone who only had to wait 1 book for the week, having only recently started the series. SO these are criticisms that are NOT merely the result of frustration due to long waiting. The last two books have persuaded me to wait until the series is all done to pick it up again, precisely so that I can avoid these year-long cliffhangers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like to add that my comment is from someone who only had to wait 1 book for the week, having only recently started the series. SO these are criticisms that are NOT merely the result of frustration due to long waiting. The last two books have persuaded me to wait until the series is all done to pick it up again, precisely so that I can avoid these year-long cliffhangers.</p>
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		<title>By: Stefan24601</title>
		<link>http://sf-fantasy.suvudu.com/2011/07/dance-interview-with-george-r-r-martin-editor-anne-groell.html/comment-page-1#comment-34035</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefan24601</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2011 00:22:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://suvudu.com/?p=19273#comment-34035</guid>
		<description>I feel like the last comment in this interview doesn&#039;t bode well. Martin&#039;s editor actually urged him to push two important sequences out of the book? With those sequences, we might have had a sort of self-contained story, the way the first three books were, and some story-lines in a Feast for Crows were (though not many). Instead, we get what amounts to filler. What developments is she talking about? The only developments I can think of are that Aegon is still alive, Theon escaped and Dany rode away on a dragon. Nothing else of note really happened in 900 pages. I feel like there should be at least 1 important development per 100 pages. Instead of cutting out the ending, she should have told him to cut out the middle. The book could have been much shorter if each chapter hadn&#039;t ended on a cliffhanger. Essentially, if each chapter is 10 pages, the first 8 is just description, while all the interesting stuff happens in the last two pages. If each page had been utilized better this could have been 900 pages WTHOUT cutting anything out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel like the last comment in this interview doesn&#8217;t bode well. Martin&#8217;s editor actually urged him to push two important sequences out of the book? With those sequences, we might have had a sort of self-contained story, the way the first three books were, and some story-lines in a Feast for Crows were (though not many). Instead, we get what amounts to filler. What developments is she talking about? The only developments I can think of are that Aegon is still alive, Theon escaped and Dany rode away on a dragon. Nothing else of note really happened in 900 pages. I feel like there should be at least 1 important development per 100 pages. Instead of cutting out the ending, she should have told him to cut out the middle. The book could have been much shorter if each chapter hadn&#8217;t ended on a cliffhanger. Essentially, if each chapter is 10 pages, the first 8 is just description, while all the interesting stuff happens in the last two pages. If each page had been utilized better this could have been 900 pages WTHOUT cutting anything out.</p>
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		<title>By: Graff</title>
		<link>http://sf-fantasy.suvudu.com/2011/07/dance-interview-with-george-r-r-martin-editor-anne-groell.html/comment-page-1#comment-32170</link>
		<dc:creator>Graff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Aug 2011 00:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://suvudu.com/?p=19273#comment-32170</guid>
		<description>Dance&#039;s biggest failing is its inability to inspire confidence in a non-trivial portion of the fandom that the series has progressed to a point where Martin (1) can complete it in an entertaining and credible way in just two more books as he has repeatedly claimed and (2) has reached a tipping point where the rest of the series &quot;writes itself&quot; so that they no longer have to wait half a decade each for subsequent books.

If there was no real possibility of those expectations being met, so be it, but then Martin and his biggest supporters have spent the past six years fanning them with &quot;it&#039;s a seven-book series&quot; and &quot;the knot is the only thing holding him up.&quot;

The idea that some readers are disappointed because they &quot;wanted a conclusion midway through the series&quot; is a pathetic straw man.  Everyone who did not mistakenly walk into Dance believing it to be the last book understood that Dance was not going to resolve the war with the Others or who sits on the Iron Throne when all is said and done.  

They wanted a reason to believe the series was moving *toward* a timely, entertaining, and credible conclusion.  Instead, the Others appear to not be doing much of anything to threaten the Seven Kingdoms, Dany is still mucking around out East with untrained dragons, and yet another war for the Iron Throne, which few readers expect to be the last of the series, has just started.

When these readers start looking for reasons *why* the series is at where it&#039;s at at the end of Dance, they&#039;re inevitably going to lay the blame on pacing problems, which naturally calls to mind terms like &quot;filler,&quot; &quot;pointless travelogue,&quot; and &quot;sitting around doing nothing.&quot;  One might be the type of person who interprets the same material as &quot;elegant descriptions,&quot; &quot;unparalleled world-building,&quot; and &quot;brilliant characterization,&quot; but these are ultimately subjective matters.  The series growing beyond seven books and taking more than a decade to complete, if that ultimately happens, is not.

The readers disappointed in the state of affairs at the end of Dance are not necessarily wrong.  IF the series grows to eight or more books and takes a decade or more to be completed, or if some people find the final two books rushed with sequences of events lacking credibility, there are reasons for it -- whether one believes those reasons improve or diminish the series as a whole -- and among those reasons will be what Martin did or failed to do in AFfC and ADwD.  

Remember, Martin himself said it would take seven books to tell his story.  This implies both a conclusion and a timeframe of sorts that people have used to decide whether to invest time in following and discussing the series.

If Martin has decided to transform his Song of Ice &amp; Fire into an endless historical epic set in his fantasy world, however brilliant, instead of telling the story of the War for the Dawn and the struggle for the Iron Throne of Westeros, so be it, but he owes it to his fans to come clean with his intentions.

As far as his editor, statements like &quot;The stuff with Penny alone…&quot; and &quot; no one, I felt, could be unsatisfied by the developments&quot; are proof that she has lost touch with the audience that exists outside of Martin&#039;s &quot;inner circle&quot; of friends and hardcore fans.  

And this type of blatant spin almost always comes back to haunt you in the long run: &quot;Yet when I read that final draft, it was as clean and seamless and as perfect as if he had always intended it to be that way,&quot; particularly when one of the individuals who volunteered to help with editing suggested three more months would have helped improve the final state of the book markably.  So much for &quot;you can&#039;t rush art.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dance&#8217;s biggest failing is its inability to inspire confidence in a non-trivial portion of the fandom that the series has progressed to a point where Martin (1) can complete it in an entertaining and credible way in just two more books as he has repeatedly claimed and (2) has reached a tipping point where the rest of the series &#8220;writes itself&#8221; so that they no longer have to wait half a decade each for subsequent books.</p>
<p>If there was no real possibility of those expectations being met, so be it, but then Martin and his biggest supporters have spent the past six years fanning them with &#8220;it&#8217;s a seven-book series&#8221; and &#8220;the knot is the only thing holding him up.&#8221;</p>
<p>The idea that some readers are disappointed because they &#8220;wanted a conclusion midway through the series&#8221; is a pathetic straw man.  Everyone who did not mistakenly walk into Dance believing it to be the last book understood that Dance was not going to resolve the war with the Others or who sits on the Iron Throne when all is said and done.  </p>
<p>They wanted a reason to believe the series was moving *toward* a timely, entertaining, and credible conclusion.  Instead, the Others appear to not be doing much of anything to threaten the Seven Kingdoms, Dany is still mucking around out East with untrained dragons, and yet another war for the Iron Throne, which few readers expect to be the last of the series, has just started.</p>
<p>When these readers start looking for reasons *why* the series is at where it&#8217;s at at the end of Dance, they&#8217;re inevitably going to lay the blame on pacing problems, which naturally calls to mind terms like &#8220;filler,&#8221; &#8220;pointless travelogue,&#8221; and &#8220;sitting around doing nothing.&#8221;  One might be the type of person who interprets the same material as &#8220;elegant descriptions,&#8221; &#8220;unparalleled world-building,&#8221; and &#8220;brilliant characterization,&#8221; but these are ultimately subjective matters.  The series growing beyond seven books and taking more than a decade to complete, if that ultimately happens, is not.</p>
<p>The readers disappointed in the state of affairs at the end of Dance are not necessarily wrong.  IF the series grows to eight or more books and takes a decade or more to be completed, or if some people find the final two books rushed with sequences of events lacking credibility, there are reasons for it &#8212; whether one believes those reasons improve or diminish the series as a whole &#8212; and among those reasons will be what Martin did or failed to do in AFfC and ADwD.  </p>
<p>Remember, Martin himself said it would take seven books to tell his story.  This implies both a conclusion and a timeframe of sorts that people have used to decide whether to invest time in following and discussing the series.</p>
<p>If Martin has decided to transform his Song of Ice &amp; Fire into an endless historical epic set in his fantasy world, however brilliant, instead of telling the story of the War for the Dawn and the struggle for the Iron Throne of Westeros, so be it, but he owes it to his fans to come clean with his intentions.</p>
<p>As far as his editor, statements like &#8220;The stuff with Penny alone…&#8221; and &#8221; no one, I felt, could be unsatisfied by the developments&#8221; are proof that she has lost touch with the audience that exists outside of Martin&#8217;s &#8220;inner circle&#8221; of friends and hardcore fans.  </p>
<p>And this type of blatant spin almost always comes back to haunt you in the long run: &#8220;Yet when I read that final draft, it was as clean and seamless and as perfect as if he had always intended it to be that way,&#8221; particularly when one of the individuals who volunteered to help with editing suggested three more months would have helped improve the final state of the book markably.  So much for &#8220;you can&#8217;t rush art.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Phydeaux2</title>
		<link>http://sf-fantasy.suvudu.com/2011/07/dance-interview-with-george-r-r-martin-editor-anne-groell.html/comment-page-1#comment-32166</link>
		<dc:creator>Phydeaux2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Aug 2011 21:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://suvudu.com/?p=19273#comment-32166</guid>
		<description>First I have to say I was always told as a child that if you don&#039;t have anything nice to say, then shut up. So let me say that I am sure Ms. Groell is doing a job that I could not do. I am sure she is a fine human being and I wish her well in all she does in life. However the last two books were a monstrous disappointment to go with the monstrous word count. What I wanted was the same thing all readers do, good characters, an advancing plot, some action etc. What I got was a medieval cook book and travelogue with phrases that became so repetitive that they actually jarred me out of the flow of reading. Really could you describe again how every single person eats and dribbles food down their chin? Could you please use the words leal, words are wind or nuncle, another fifty seven times? Isn&#039;t it the point of an editor to notice these things and to make sure the plot actually advances? 

From the interview I can pinpoint the problem immediately and in her own words, ...&quot;In addition to being his editor, I am also a huge fan,...&quot; Many jobs have some sort of objectivity clause, IE.. if you are so close to the subject you shouldn&#039;t be working on it. This publishing house has violated that very astute rule and it shows. Two mediocre books of +900 pages could have been easily edited down to one awesome book of approximately 1100-1200. If it is not the abject fandom blinding the editor, it is the fact that Georges success has become to strong for them to reign in. Either way they are compromised and should relinquish the job they are supposed to be doing. 

Now as the ravening sycophantic wolves come in to blast me and say, &quot;You are just being nonobjective because you are angry over the huge delay.&quot; Let me say you are the ones being nonobjective. Any person who can read reviews from people who have no ties to the writer or book can find the overwhelming truth at any review site. The last two books have TANKED in popularity compared to the first three. Any outrageous sales numbers are due to the success of the first three books and the HBO series, not the sheer awesomeness of the last two disappointments and you know it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First I have to say I was always told as a child that if you don&#8217;t have anything nice to say, then shut up. So let me say that I am sure Ms. Groell is doing a job that I could not do. I am sure she is a fine human being and I wish her well in all she does in life. However the last two books were a monstrous disappointment to go with the monstrous word count. What I wanted was the same thing all readers do, good characters, an advancing plot, some action etc. What I got was a medieval cook book and travelogue with phrases that became so repetitive that they actually jarred me out of the flow of reading. Really could you describe again how every single person eats and dribbles food down their chin? Could you please use the words leal, words are wind or nuncle, another fifty seven times? Isn&#8217;t it the point of an editor to notice these things and to make sure the plot actually advances? </p>
<p>From the interview I can pinpoint the problem immediately and in her own words, &#8230;&#8221;In addition to being his editor, I am also a huge fan,&#8230;&#8221; Many jobs have some sort of objectivity clause, IE.. if you are so close to the subject you shouldn&#8217;t be working on it. This publishing house has violated that very astute rule and it shows. Two mediocre books of +900 pages could have been easily edited down to one awesome book of approximately 1100-1200. If it is not the abject fandom blinding the editor, it is the fact that Georges success has become to strong for them to reign in. Either way they are compromised and should relinquish the job they are supposed to be doing. </p>
<p>Now as the ravening sycophantic wolves come in to blast me and say, &#8220;You are just being nonobjective because you are angry over the huge delay.&#8221; Let me say you are the ones being nonobjective. Any person who can read reviews from people who have no ties to the writer or book can find the overwhelming truth at any review site. The last two books have TANKED in popularity compared to the first three. Any outrageous sales numbers are due to the success of the first three books and the HBO series, not the sheer awesomeness of the last two disappointments and you know it.</p>
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		<title>By: Goo Gee</title>
		<link>http://sf-fantasy.suvudu.com/2011/07/dance-interview-with-george-r-r-martin-editor-anne-groell.html/comment-page-1#comment-32084</link>
		<dc:creator>Goo Gee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2011 11:06:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://suvudu.com/?p=19273#comment-32084</guid>
		<description>Oh yes.... words are wind!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh yes&#8230;. words are wind!!</p>
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		<title>By: Goo Gee</title>
		<link>http://sf-fantasy.suvudu.com/2011/07/dance-interview-with-george-r-r-martin-editor-anne-groell.html/comment-page-1#comment-32083</link>
		<dc:creator>Goo Gee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2011 11:04:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://suvudu.com/?p=19273#comment-32083</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sory guys... but having just finished  ADwD I have to say the book is fantastic... I seriously cannot understand why there is so much hate for the book ( the 6 years wait and no resolution?? it is only the 5th book in the series!!!).... the characters were interesting.... story told beautifuly I relished every word... ther only character that was annoying through the book redeems herself in last POV.... it is a believeable and well told story and you dear readers are just spoiled and angry for having to wait so long... and angry to know you have to wait even more for the next book!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sory guys&#8230; but having just finished  ADwD I have to say the book is fantastic&#8230; I seriously cannot understand why there is so much hate for the book ( the 6 years wait and no resolution?? it is only the 5th book in the series!!!)&#8230;. the characters were interesting&#8230;. story told beautifuly I relished every word&#8230; ther only character that was annoying through the book redeems herself in last POV&#8230;. it is a believeable and well told story and you dear readers are just spoiled and angry for having to wait so long&#8230; and angry to know you have to wait even more for the next book!!</p>
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		<title>By: Joneck</title>
		<link>http://sf-fantasy.suvudu.com/2011/07/dance-interview-with-george-r-r-martin-editor-anne-groell.html/comment-page-1#comment-32052</link>
		<dc:creator>Joneck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Aug 2011 14:48:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://suvudu.com/?p=19273#comment-32052</guid>
		<description>With the job she&#039;s done editing the past two books I&#039;d say it&#039;s high time Mr. Martin finds an editor who can reign him in a bit. The first three books were phenomenal. The most recent two could easily have been combined into one volume.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With the job she&#8217;s done editing the past two books I&#8217;d say it&#8217;s high time Mr. Martin finds an editor who can reign him in a bit. The first three books were phenomenal. The most recent two could easily have been combined into one volume.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://sf-fantasy.suvudu.com/2011/07/dance-interview-with-george-r-r-martin-editor-anne-groell.html/comment-page-1#comment-31664</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2011 21:39:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://suvudu.com/?p=19273#comment-31664</guid>
		<description>If she&#039;s been his editor for this long she needs to make him get a move on.

Dance had everything that was bad about Feast and more. 

One of the two people involved here are not doing their jobs correctly. Another 5 year wait for a weak book will be a joke.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If she&#8217;s been his editor for this long she needs to make him get a move on.</p>
<p>Dance had everything that was bad about Feast and more. </p>
<p>One of the two people involved here are not doing their jobs correctly. Another 5 year wait for a weak book will be a joke.</p>
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		<title>By: John B Good</title>
		<link>http://sf-fantasy.suvudu.com/2011/07/dance-interview-with-george-r-r-martin-editor-anne-groell.html/comment-page-1#comment-31146</link>
		<dc:creator>John B Good</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jul 2011 03:02:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://suvudu.com/?p=19273#comment-31146</guid>
		<description>I have to say I&#039;m disappointed.  Its very much like AFFC, which is easily the weakest book in the series.  Just like AFFC, the main plot points barely budge.  Dance suffers from bad pacing, little action until the backend, and the same tried and annoying cliffhangers.  At times, I wished to skip chapters, and sadly the worst offenders were 2 of the 3 characters with the most chapters (Ironically, the 3rd character, who I don&#039;t even like in the other books, ends the worst, despite being the most interesting POV throughout most of Dance.   I don&#039;t care what happens to the character, but its just a really lame cliffhanger.).  Certain POVs could have numerous chapters left out or combined and I can think of a couple characters that didn&#039;t even need a POV.  Other POVs could have benefited from added chapters, I&#039;m thinking of one very cold and treelike character in particular.  GRRM has a great skill for language and he built an interesting world, but the series has jumped the shark since SoS, easily the best book in the series.  I hope it gets back on track in the Winds, because the 4th and 5th books are warts on what was a great series. Maybe, this is all because he didn&#039;t do the 5 year skip and GRRM had to fiddle around for two books to get things set up right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to say I&#8217;m disappointed.  Its very much like AFFC, which is easily the weakest book in the series.  Just like AFFC, the main plot points barely budge.  Dance suffers from bad pacing, little action until the backend, and the same tried and annoying cliffhangers.  At times, I wished to skip chapters, and sadly the worst offenders were 2 of the 3 characters with the most chapters (Ironically, the 3rd character, who I don&#8217;t even like in the other books, ends the worst, despite being the most interesting POV throughout most of Dance.   I don&#8217;t care what happens to the character, but its just a really lame cliffhanger.).  Certain POVs could have numerous chapters left out or combined and I can think of a couple characters that didn&#8217;t even need a POV.  Other POVs could have benefited from added chapters, I&#8217;m thinking of one very cold and treelike character in particular.  GRRM has a great skill for language and he built an interesting world, but the series has jumped the shark since SoS, easily the best book in the series.  I hope it gets back on track in the Winds, because the 4th and 5th books are warts on what was a great series. Maybe, this is all because he didn&#8217;t do the 5 year skip and GRRM had to fiddle around for two books to get things set up right.</p>
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